Fire chief rings alarm bells over 999 dashes

Kidderminster Shuttle: Fire chief rings alarm bells over 999 dashes Fire chief rings alarm bells over 999 dashes

IT could take life-saving fire crews an extra seven minutes to reach emergency blazes in Worcester under a “worst case scenario”.

Chief fire officer Mark Yates said there are likely to be “one or two” incidents a year where an engine takes up to 17 minutes to reach a fire, if proposed cuts of £4.7 million are made.

He also admitted he didn’t know if the cuts will lead to more deaths – but went on to insist it was a “subjective area” and that his own belief is that it wouldn’t increase fatalities. Mr Yates appeared before Worcester City Council’s scrutiny committee to be questioned by politicians for the second time this month. As your Worcester News reported last week, Mr Yates told politicians at County Hall that fire crews would be ‘late’ for 14 extra blazes per year once a fire engine is removed in the city.

That means for nine building blazes and five road crashes, the first fire engine will take more than 10 minutes to get to the incident – over the service’s in-house targets.

During Wednesday’s debate Councillor David Tibbutt asked him if “after 10 minutes” meant a few seconds, or much longer.

The committee was told the extra time delays would be “one second to seven minutes” depending on how busy the crews were that day and the location of the call. Mr Yates said: “The worst case scenario would be a fire engine having to be called in (from Malvern or Droitwich) and having to go to the Sixways area, for example, and in that case it could be up to seven minutes.

“But that would only be for one or two calls a year. The key thing for Worcester is the Malvern and Droitwich stations, because they are your key links and road access is good. On normal occasions the whole-time fire engine will be there (at Worcester), but we know dual calls do come in.”

He also told the committee that removing one appliance from Worcester, which has three, would save £750,000 towards the £4.7 million that needs to be saved over the next three years.

The third fire engine in Worcester is used around 250 times a year.

Coun Jabba Riaz asked him if “not having a third engine” will result in more deaths. “On fatalities, I couldn’t tell you,” said Mr Yates.

“But this proposal will still leave Worcester with the best fire coverage in Worcestershire and Herefordshire. I don’t think there will be more (deaths) because of this. “It’s a very subjective area but research shows most people who are dead die before a fire engine gets there.”

He also reiterated that Worcester fire station gets 1,400 calls a year, adding: “I am satisfied we have the resources to cope with whatever life throws at us.” The cuts, which are out for consultation until January, include going from 43 fire engines to 33 in the two counties, and 144 job losses across the service.

Comments (23)

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2:47pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Lizzie R says...

Why is there a picture of County Hall and why does the article say County Hall? Worcester City Council is a different authority whose office is not County Hall. I suspect this was a deliberate act by the WN to invite further anti-Worcestershire county council comments again.
Why is there a picture of County Hall and why does the article say County Hall? Worcester City Council is a different authority whose office is not County Hall. I suspect this was a deliberate act by the WN to invite further anti-Worcestershire county council comments again. Lizzie R

3:19pm Sat 14 Dec 13

reflector says...

It sounds as though the Chief Fire officer is being quite candid about the effects of the proposed cuts which is a very welcome attitude. It's about time that Cameron, Pickles and Co were challenged about all this and told that such measures are totally unacceptable. As a civilised country in this technological age they should be taking steps to make us more safe rather than imposing a risky strategy that sooner or later seems bound to result in greater loss of life and costly damage to property.

If the present bunch of coalition supporters want to have any chance of being re-elected they should be opposing these measures rather than huffing and puffing about their ridiculous proposed pay rise.

What are all these cuts about anyway and where are the savings going? They are still collecting the same in taxes so we are going on paying the same for less and less service.
It sounds as though the Chief Fire officer is being quite candid about the effects of the proposed cuts which is a very welcome attitude. It's about time that Cameron, Pickles and Co were challenged about all this and told that such measures are totally unacceptable. As a civilised country in this technological age they should be taking steps to make us more safe rather than imposing a risky strategy that sooner or later seems bound to result in greater loss of life and costly damage to property. If the present bunch of coalition supporters want to have any chance of being re-elected they should be opposing these measures rather than huffing and puffing about their ridiculous proposed pay rise. What are all these cuts about anyway and where are the savings going? They are still collecting the same in taxes so we are going on paying the same for less and less service. reflector

4:18pm Sat 14 Dec 13

THE FACTS says...

Reading a different article?

Removing one engine wont make any difference. end of.
Reading a different article? Removing one engine wont make any difference. end of. THE FACTS

6:53pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Brummagem Bertie says...

THE FACTS wrote:
Reading a different article?

Removing one engine wont make any difference. end of.
You and he hope.

Earlier this year there was a huge fire at a Smethwick recycling plant, that threatened to engulf neighbouring commercial and residential properties, whice were all evacuated.

The fire needed appliances from all over the West Midlands, as well as Herefordshire and Worcestershire. I remember reading at the time that at one point there was only ONE appliance left available to respond to an emergency in the whole of the two counties.

Now they are proposing to get rid of 10 appliances at the same time as West Midlands are cutting a number of theirs. You do the maths.

It seems that everyone is just keeping their fingers crossed that they don't get another incident like Smethwick any time soon.
[quote][p][bold]THE FACTS[/bold] wrote: Reading a different article? Removing one engine wont make any difference. end of.[/p][/quote]You and he hope. Earlier this year there was a huge fire at a Smethwick recycling plant, that threatened to engulf neighbouring commercial and residential properties, whice were all evacuated. The fire needed appliances from all over the West Midlands, as well as Herefordshire and Worcestershire. I remember reading at the time that at one point there was only ONE appliance left available to respond to an emergency in the whole of the two counties. Now they are proposing to get rid of 10 appliances at the same time as West Midlands are cutting a number of theirs. You do the maths. It seems that everyone is just keeping their fingers crossed that they don't get another incident like Smethwick any time soon. Brummagem Bertie

6:58pm Sat 14 Dec 13

THE FACTS says...

If we had 100 appliances and they were all deployed at fires then we would be in deep do do. I goes on and on.

If a fire starts and no one spots it we get dead people ...

Bottom line ..most of the time the appliances are not attending fires ..so we dont need them all.

People in Penzance, John o Groats dont get a very fast service either.

There is no money left
If we had 100 appliances and they were all deployed at fires then we would be in deep do do. I goes on and on. If a fire starts and no one spots it we get dead people ... Bottom line ..most of the time the appliances are not attending fires ..so we dont need them all. People in Penzance, John o Groats dont get a very fast service either. There is no money left THE FACTS

8:31pm Sat 14 Dec 13

New Kid on the Block says...

Quote
"Bottom line ..most of the time the appliances are not attending fires ..so we dont need them all."

Question
What about when they are attending fires. You can't just magic some more out of the air.
This is the whole principle of insurance - you hope never to need it but if you do you had better have enough.
Quote "Bottom line ..most of the time the appliances are not attending fires ..so we dont need them all." Question What about when they are attending fires. You can't just magic some more out of the air. This is the whole principle of insurance - you hope never to need it but if you do you had better have enough. New Kid on the Block

9:08pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Brummagem Bertie says...

Well, if all the appliances are at another fire, let's just hope it's your property that goes up in smoke, THE FACTS, rather than some poor unfortunate. At least you'll be able to stay philosophical about it.
Well, if all the appliances are at another fire, let's just hope it's your property that goes up in smoke, THE FACTS, rather than some poor unfortunate. At least you'll be able to stay philosophical about it. Brummagem Bertie

9:12pm Sat 14 Dec 13

asumabstainer says...

At the end of the day the ordinary person in the street would only be concerned how quick they can expect a fire engine if required so why isn`t the Chief Fire Officer telling us what could be saved by reducing the number of so called middle management officers. I understand that back room staff far outnumber the amount of full time firefighters, just look at the size of fire brigade HQ. Lots of people chasing the paper trail !
At the end of the day the ordinary person in the street would only be concerned how quick they can expect a fire engine if required so why isn`t the Chief Fire Officer telling us what could be saved by reducing the number of so called middle management officers. I understand that back room staff far outnumber the amount of full time firefighters, just look at the size of fire brigade HQ. Lots of people chasing the paper trail ! asumabstainer

9:56pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Cllr Paul Gittins says...

A
A Cllr Paul Gittins

10:29pm Sat 14 Dec 13

CJH says...

Cllr Paul Gittins wrote:
A
Now why can't all councillors make brief and to the point comments like this? ;-)
[quote][p][bold]Cllr Paul Gittins[/bold] wrote: A[/p][/quote]Now why can't all councillors make brief and to the point comments like this? ;-) CJH

1:31pm Sun 15 Dec 13

Real Facts says...

THE FACTS wrote:
If we had 100 appliances and they were all deployed at fires then we would be in deep do do. I goes on and on.

If a fire starts and no one spots it we get dead people ...

Bottom line ..most of the time the appliances are not attending fires ..so we dont need them all.

People in Penzance, John o Groats dont get a very fast service either.

There is no money left
Where on earth do you get your information from?

Have a look at Lawrence's Recycling a year ago.
Then have another look at Lawrence's Recycling in June.
Hereford and Worcester were very nearly swamped both times.

Penzance is served by a "Day Crewed" station
Meaning on call from home at night; working four days on, four days off.
John O Groats is Retained
Retained Firefighters are typically used where there is less likelihood of fire. They have their own jobs and respond via pager if required.
There is an awful lot of money left.
I would be most intrigued to know your highly qualified version of how we should crew our fire stations.
[quote][p][bold]THE FACTS[/bold] wrote: If we had 100 appliances and they were all deployed at fires then we would be in deep do do. I goes on and on. If a fire starts and no one spots it we get dead people ... Bottom line ..most of the time the appliances are not attending fires ..so we dont need them all. People in Penzance, John o Groats dont get a very fast service either. There is no money left[/p][/quote]Where on earth do you get your information from? Have a look at Lawrence's Recycling a year ago. Then have another look at Lawrence's Recycling in June. Hereford and Worcester were very nearly swamped both times. Penzance is served by a "Day Crewed" station Meaning on call from home at night; working four days on, four days off. John O Groats is Retained Retained Firefighters are typically used where there is less likelihood of fire. They have their own jobs and respond via pager if required. There is an awful lot of money left. I would be most intrigued to know your highly qualified version of how we should crew our fire stations. Real Facts

1:36pm Sun 15 Dec 13

THE FACTS says...

QUITE A LARGE PROPORTION OF THE MONEY IS SPENT ON EXTREMELY GENEROUS PENSIONS.
CHECK THE COMMUNITY CHARGE COSTS FROM THE FIRE DEPT
QUITE A LARGE PROPORTION OF THE MONEY IS SPENT ON EXTREMELY GENEROUS PENSIONS. CHECK THE COMMUNITY CHARGE COSTS FROM THE FIRE DEPT THE FACTS

8:16pm Sun 15 Dec 13

Brummagem Bertie says...

Personally, I don't begrudge people, who never know what they might face when they go to work, be it risking their lives in a fire, having to cut dead, dying or seriously injured people out of cars, recover dead people from water, etc., etc., a decent pension.

As for their being no money left, there still seems to be plenty of money to support the war in Afghanistan, to replace Trident, to write off on changes to computer systems, for HS2, etc., etc., but not enough to provide a city and county town of 100,000 people with 3 fire engines.
Personally, I don't begrudge people, who never know what they might face when they go to work, be it risking their lives in a fire, having to cut dead, dying or seriously injured people out of cars, recover dead people from water, etc., etc., a decent pension. As for their being no money left, there still seems to be plenty of money to support the war in Afghanistan, to replace Trident, to write off on changes to computer systems, for HS2, etc., etc., but not enough to provide a city and county town of 100,000 people with 3 fire engines. Brummagem Bertie

8:11am Mon 16 Dec 13

Real Facts says...

THE FACTS wrote:
QUITE A LARGE PROPORTION OF THE MONEY IS SPENT ON EXTREMELY GENEROUS PENSIONS.
CHECK THE COMMUNITY CHARGE COSTS FROM THE FIRE DEPT
Little bit "Shouty" but again inaccurate. There are two disputes on at the moment.
1. This one; which is all about central government withholding a portion of the annual budget meaning up to ten appliances may be cut. And
2. The pensions industrial dispute. (Which is what all the strikes are about)
Pensions have been eroded rather viciously by this government.

Out of interest how much do you pay into your pension?
[quote][p][bold]THE FACTS[/bold] wrote: QUITE A LARGE PROPORTION OF THE MONEY IS SPENT ON EXTREMELY GENEROUS PENSIONS. CHECK THE COMMUNITY CHARGE COSTS FROM THE FIRE DEPT[/p][/quote]Little bit "Shouty" but again inaccurate. There are two disputes on at the moment. 1. This one; which is all about central government withholding a portion of the annual budget meaning up to ten appliances may be cut. And 2. The pensions industrial dispute. (Which is what all the strikes are about) Pensions have been eroded rather viciously by this government. Out of interest how much do you pay into your pension? Real Facts

1:15pm Mon 16 Dec 13

THE FACTS says...

This issue will not go onto a personal level because the readership in not interested in personal circumstances.... They want to understand the matter at hand which is saving their hand earned tax by cutting wasteful expenditure.

It is well understood, in the economics industry, that almost any government run enterprise is wasteful almost always because the free access to funds & absence of competition conspire to produce a looser management style.

So naturally, they spend needlessly. So a good example is pensions, why do government employees get gold plated pensions when the rest of industry never did? A pension was a means of attracting staff... virtually no government jobs are any more difficult than civilian ones..why the need to pay more in pensions and often salary?
Answer because thay can for reasons above.

Today that pendulum is swinging toward a more equitable position and long may it continue. There will be casualties but there always is with any adjustment that is not a reason to stop the adjustment.

You asked what pension contribution I made ..over 30 years it was 21% of my salary. But as I said earlier this isnt a personal issue it is a much bigger national topic
This issue will not go onto a personal level because the readership in not interested in personal circumstances.... They want to understand the matter at hand which is saving their hand earned tax by cutting wasteful expenditure. It is well understood, in the economics industry, that almost any government run enterprise is wasteful almost always because the free access to funds & absence of competition conspire to produce a looser management style. So naturally, they spend needlessly. So a good example is pensions, why do government employees get gold plated pensions when the rest of industry never did? A pension was a means of attracting staff... virtually no government jobs are any more difficult than civilian ones..why the need to pay more in pensions and often salary? Answer because thay can for reasons above. Today that pendulum is swinging toward a more equitable position and long may it continue. There will be casualties but there always is with any adjustment that is not a reason to stop the adjustment. You asked what pension contribution I made ..over 30 years it was 21% of my salary. But as I said earlier this isnt a personal issue it is a much bigger national topic THE FACTS

1:37pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Real Facts says...

THE FACTS wrote:
This issue will not go onto a personal level because the readership in not interested in personal circumstances.... They want to understand the matter at hand which is saving their hand earned tax by cutting wasteful expenditure.

It is well understood, in the economics industry, that almost any government run enterprise is wasteful almost always because the free access to funds & absence of competition conspire to produce a looser management style.

So naturally, they spend needlessly. So a good example is pensions, why do government employees get gold plated pensions when the rest of industry never did? A pension was a means of attracting staff... virtually no government jobs are any more difficult than civilian ones..why the need to pay more in pensions and often salary?
Answer because thay can for reasons above.

Today that pendulum is swinging toward a more equitable position and long may it continue. There will be casualties but there always is with any adjustment that is not a reason to stop the adjustment.

You asked what pension contribution I made ..over 30 years it was 21% of my salary. But as I said earlier this isnt a personal issue it is a much bigger national topic
I would suggest that £400 every four weeks is not really "gold plated."
I say again.
How much do you pay into your pension?
How many Christmas Days have you worked?
Bank holidays?
Kids birthdays?
Wedding anniversaries?
You don't have to because Firefighters do.
Up and down the country there are crews away from there loved ones prepared to risk their lives on your behalf.
That's not wasteful.
It's called insurance.
[quote][p][bold]THE FACTS[/bold] wrote: This issue will not go onto a personal level because the readership in not interested in personal circumstances.... They want to understand the matter at hand which is saving their hand earned tax by cutting wasteful expenditure. It is well understood, in the economics industry, that almost any government run enterprise is wasteful almost always because the free access to funds & absence of competition conspire to produce a looser management style. So naturally, they spend needlessly. So a good example is pensions, why do government employees get gold plated pensions when the rest of industry never did? A pension was a means of attracting staff... virtually no government jobs are any more difficult than civilian ones..why the need to pay more in pensions and often salary? Answer because thay can for reasons above. Today that pendulum is swinging toward a more equitable position and long may it continue. There will be casualties but there always is with any adjustment that is not a reason to stop the adjustment. You asked what pension contribution I made ..over 30 years it was 21% of my salary. But as I said earlier this isnt a personal issue it is a much bigger national topic[/p][/quote]I would suggest that £400 every four weeks is not really "gold plated." I say again. How much do you pay into your pension? How many Christmas Days have you worked? Bank holidays? Kids birthdays? Wedding anniversaries? You don't have to because Firefighters do. Up and down the country there are crews away from there loved ones prepared to risk their lives on your behalf. That's not wasteful. It's called insurance. Real Facts

1:53pm Mon 16 Dec 13

THE FACTS says...

Real Facts wrote:
THE FACTS wrote:
This issue will not go onto a personal level because the readership in not interested in personal circumstances.... They want to understand the matter at hand which is saving their hand earned tax by cutting wasteful expenditure.

It is well understood, in the economics industry, that almost any government run enterprise is wasteful almost always because the free access to funds & absence of competition conspire to produce a looser management style.

So naturally, they spend needlessly. So a good example is pensions, why do government employees get gold plated pensions when the rest of industry never did? A pension was a means of attracting staff... virtually no government jobs are any more difficult than civilian ones..why the need to pay more in pensions and often salary?
Answer because thay can for reasons above.

Today that pendulum is swinging toward a more equitable position and long may it continue. There will be casualties but there always is with any adjustment that is not a reason to stop the adjustment.

You asked what pension contribution I made ..over 30 years it was 21% of my salary. But as I said earlier this isnt a personal issue it is a much bigger national topic
I would suggest that £400 every four weeks is not really "gold plated."
I say again.
How much do you pay into your pension?
How many Christmas Days have you worked?
Bank holidays?
Kids birthdays?
Wedding anniversaries?
You don't have to because Firefighters do.
Up and down the country there are crews away from there loved ones prepared to risk their lives on your behalf.
That's not wasteful.
It's called insurance.
Personal vendettas are not what this is about

I have worked many bank holidays and christmas days.

Reason: I was a shift worker with compulsory attendance working 24/7 and 365... even before the terms were in common usage.

Pension contribution totalled £243,000.

OK now back to the debate.

Why do firemen have second jobs ?
Answer: becasue they sleep all night on the night shift cos there are no calls to attend.

Heres the numbers from the article above:

"Worcester fire station gets 1,400 calls a year... "

So how many is that per engine per day ( and night ) ?

Is it 2 per day thats in 24 hours ... 2 call outs per engine in every 24 hours...is that correct?

Just wondering.

Many of them car accidents ...which the tax payer should not be funding..thats an insurance co cost not a tax payer cost.

BTW, I will not answer and further personal questions..... NB that will probably be to your benefit from the looks of it!
[quote][p][bold]Real Facts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]THE FACTS[/bold] wrote: This issue will not go onto a personal level because the readership in not interested in personal circumstances.... They want to understand the matter at hand which is saving their hand earned tax by cutting wasteful expenditure. It is well understood, in the economics industry, that almost any government run enterprise is wasteful almost always because the free access to funds & absence of competition conspire to produce a looser management style. So naturally, they spend needlessly. So a good example is pensions, why do government employees get gold plated pensions when the rest of industry never did? A pension was a means of attracting staff... virtually no government jobs are any more difficult than civilian ones..why the need to pay more in pensions and often salary? Answer because thay can for reasons above. Today that pendulum is swinging toward a more equitable position and long may it continue. There will be casualties but there always is with any adjustment that is not a reason to stop the adjustment. You asked what pension contribution I made ..over 30 years it was 21% of my salary. But as I said earlier this isnt a personal issue it is a much bigger national topic[/p][/quote]I would suggest that £400 every four weeks is not really "gold plated." I say again. How much do you pay into your pension? How many Christmas Days have you worked? Bank holidays? Kids birthdays? Wedding anniversaries? You don't have to because Firefighters do. Up and down the country there are crews away from there loved ones prepared to risk their lives on your behalf. That's not wasteful. It's called insurance.[/p][/quote]Personal vendettas are not what this is about I have worked many bank holidays and christmas days. Reason: I was a shift worker with compulsory attendance working 24/7 and 365... even before the terms were in common usage. Pension contribution totalled £243,000. OK now back to the debate. Why do firemen have second jobs ? Answer: becasue they sleep all night on the night shift cos there are no calls to attend. Heres the numbers from the article above: "Worcester fire station gets 1,400 calls a year... " So how many is that per engine per day ( and night ) ? Is it 2 per day thats in 24 hours ... 2 call outs per engine in every 24 hours...is that correct? Just wondering. Many of them car accidents ...which the tax payer should not be funding..thats an insurance co cost not a tax payer cost. BTW, I will not answer and further personal questions..... NB that will probably be to your benefit from the looks of it! THE FACTS

2:19pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Real Facts says...

Not quite sure what the problem is but ok.
Firefighters work a 42 hour week. Sometimes they get the luxury of a night in bed.
Some firefighters have a second job. Many provide extra cover as Retained Firefighters. Many provide extra cover because the Brigade does not have enough people. Many don't have any second income c

I can guarantee that the statement that Worcester Fire Station gets 1,400 calls a year is not factual.

How about this then:
Do you have home or contents insurance?
With your logic why bother?
You have insurance for the same reason that we have a Fire Brigade.
"Just in case."
Not quite sure what the problem is but ok. Firefighters work a 42 hour week. Sometimes they get the luxury of a night in bed. Some firefighters have a second job. Many provide extra cover as Retained Firefighters. Many provide extra cover because the Brigade does not have enough people. Many don't have any second income c I can guarantee that the statement that Worcester Fire Station gets 1,400 calls a year is not factual. How about this then: Do you have home or contents insurance? With your logic why bother? You have insurance for the same reason that we have a Fire Brigade. "Just in case." Real Facts

2:25pm Mon 16 Dec 13

THE FACTS says...

WHy bother ?

You are comparing no insurance with reduced number of engines.

The comparison is: reduced levels of insurance ie increased excess on car or house insurance say with reduced number of fire engines...most people are upping their car insurance excess.

So less engines are cheaper just like a higher excess
WHy bother ? You are comparing no insurance with reduced number of engines. The comparison is: reduced levels of insurance ie increased excess on car or house insurance say with reduced number of fire engines...most people are upping their car insurance excess. So less engines are cheaper just like a higher excess THE FACTS

2:44pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Real Facts says...

Hereford and Worcester is not a big Brigade. The loss of one quarter of its Fire Fighting ability is simply ridiculous.

Now. There are Retained Stations that cannot crew their engine. That really is a waste of money. But to downgrade the busiest stations in the brigade to cut costs?
Foolish. I'm sure I could cut Officer numbers and save the appropriate amount.
99% of calls are four engines or less.
These calls can be commanded by Crew or Watch Commanders (it's part of their role map)

So what shall we cut first?
The front line who are there to protect you?
Or some officers that may not even need to be employed?

I would prefer to see no cuts at all but surely Fire Fighting Appliances must be last to go.
And eighteen months off figures do not tell the whole story.
Hereford and Worcester is not a big Brigade. The loss of one quarter of its Fire Fighting ability is simply ridiculous. Now. There are Retained Stations that cannot crew their engine. That really is a waste of money. But to downgrade the busiest stations in the brigade to cut costs? Foolish. I'm sure I could cut Officer numbers and save the appropriate amount. 99% of calls are four engines or less. These calls can be commanded by Crew or Watch Commanders (it's part of their role map) So what shall we cut first? The front line who are there to protect you? Or some officers that may not even need to be employed? I would prefer to see no cuts at all but surely Fire Fighting Appliances must be last to go. And eighteen months off figures do not tell the whole story. Real Facts

5:08pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Brummagem Bertie says...

For someone who styles themselves as THE FACTS, you do spout a lot of myth and fiction.

Public sector pensions are not gold plated for the vast majority of staff and they have become more expensive and worth less year on year for about the last 10. Most public sector pensions are just enough to mean that the taxpayer doesn't have to pay the pensioner pension credit or other benefits, so no real cost to the taxpayer. Compare that with the private sector, where the collapse of occupational pension schemes due to mismanagement and legal embezzlement means that the taxpayer is increasingly picking up the bill to support private sector pensioners with benefits on top of their state pension.

I also don't recognise the loose management in the public sector with the much stricter and effective management in the private sector. My experience of public sector managers with budgets is that they treat the money almost as their own and trying to get them to spend it is very difficult.

As for the private sector, are you really arguing that the banking and financial services sectors, the energy companies, the railways, water companies, G4S, Serco, any number of defence contractors, etc., etc., all of whom are responsible for consuming vast amounts of taxpayer money, is really more effectively and efficiently managed? Quite remarkable!
For someone who styles themselves as THE FACTS, you do spout a lot of myth and fiction. Public sector pensions are not gold plated for the vast majority of staff and they have become more expensive and worth less year on year for about the last 10. Most public sector pensions are just enough to mean that the taxpayer doesn't have to pay the pensioner pension credit or other benefits, so no real cost to the taxpayer. Compare that with the private sector, where the collapse of occupational pension schemes due to mismanagement and legal embezzlement means that the taxpayer is increasingly picking up the bill to support private sector pensioners with benefits on top of their state pension. I also don't recognise the loose management in the public sector with the much stricter and effective management in the private sector. My experience of public sector managers with budgets is that they treat the money almost as their own and trying to get them to spend it is very difficult. As for the private sector, are you really arguing that the banking and financial services sectors, the energy companies, the railways, water companies, G4S, Serco, any number of defence contractors, etc., etc., all of whom are responsible for consuming vast amounts of taxpayer money, is really more effectively and efficiently managed? Quite remarkable! Brummagem Bertie

7:03pm Tue 17 Dec 13

mchalgo says...

What a misnomer "The Facts" is - you eally do make it up as you go along don't you? Can I recommend an hour or two in the reference library !!
What a misnomer "The Facts" is - you eally do make it up as you go along don't you? Can I recommend an hour or two in the reference library !! mchalgo

7:28pm Tue 17 Dec 13

CJH says...

Never let 'the facts' get in the way of a good story...
Never let 'the facts' get in the way of a good story... CJH
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