Wyre Forest MP hits back after Labour criticism (From Kidderminster Shuttle)

Gobby Robby says...
9:05am Thu 11 Oct 12

Brilliant! Our lamentable MP has shot himself in the foot yet again! He once said that the reason we have a low interest rate was because of the government's economic policy of austerity cheering the markets (the party line) now he's told the truth - it because of the govt's economic policy putting us into a double dip recesion! Nice one Mark ;-)

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Red Flag Dan says...
10:11am Thu 11 Oct 12

Mark Garnier actually said: “The reason we have a low interest rate is because the economy is absolutely screwed”.

Yet Cameron said in his speech yesterday that "interest rates (are) at record low levels" because of "the grit and resolve of George Osborne."

It must be very frustrating for Mark to be out of the loop. Keep voting how the whips tell you and you'll get there eventually old boy!

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Respectable says...
10:24am Thu 11 Oct 12

Personally. I'm sick and tired of this coalition government repeatedly blaming the last lot for the current mess.
You've been at this for two and a half years now.
Why do the Con-Dem's keep abdicating responsibility for the issues they need to resolve ?
I'm not a staunch labour support either but I do remember only to well the recession of the last Tory Government and the 15% Interest rates that blighted the late 80's / early 90's . I still get to pay off some of the negative equity from my my first property.

I don't recall Blair and Brown constantly referring back to Milk Snatcher Thatcher and John Major.

When will be get central and local governments that actually have a plan for success instead of this long running blame the last lot culture and smart mouthed p*****g Contests.

All I know is that as a motorist and hard working homeowner I seem to be financially shafted more and more no matter who's in the chair...

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drbeat says...
11:14am Thu 11 Oct 12

Milk snatching was started by Harold Wilson.

"In 1968, Harold Wilson’s Labour government restricted it to primary school pupils - a little-recalled fact - but it was Margaret Thatcher’s decision to withdraw it from over-sevens in 1971 that is remembered to this day." http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/health/health
news/9339158/Nursery
-milk-costing-up-to-
92p-a-pint.html#

Thatcher only reduced free milk to a certain school age group. The government of the day needed to make savings due to the mess left by the previous Labour government!

Bliar and Broon constantly referred to the 'last lot' with "no more boom and bust" and they did so all the way up to the day Broon lost the GE with rubbish like "don't let them take us back to the 80s". However, Bliar and Broon took us back to the 70s!

Interest Rates of 15% did not blight the 80s and 90s! IRs were at 15% for ONE DAY! They started from 10%, then 15%, down to 12% and then finally back to 10% where they had been for a number of years! So stop telling lies! http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Black_Wedne
sday The historical norm for IRs is 8%!

But lets not forget Broon selling our gold, and announcing the price before the sale?? Lets not forget IRs that were way too low since 2000 and encouraged reckless borrowing, LIAR LOANS and mortgage fraud! Lets not forget which party priced a generation out of housing? Lets not forget who dished out the knighthoods for the bankers! THE LABOUR PARTY!

Garnier is correct, our economy is screwed! It's screwed due to 13 years of Labour Government which has left this country ruined! We have a public sector much bigger than a private sector which makes us close to the command communist economies which collapsed in the late 80s!

John Major was correct! New Labour, New Danger!

Only complete economic collapse can get us out of the hell hole we are currently in! All the while, Broon & Bliar and the rest of the Liebour Party will be sipping champagne in their tax havens whilst we all struggle to fix the mess they left us with!

Milk snatching was started by Harold Wilson. "In 1968, Harold Wilson’s Labour government restricted it to primary school pupils - a little-recalled fact - but it was Margaret Thatcher’s decision to withdraw it from over-sevens in 1971 that is remembered to this day." http://www.telegraph .co.uk/health/health news/9339158/Nursery -milk-costing-up-to- 92p-a-pint.html# Thatcher only reduced free milk to a certain school age group. The government of the day needed to make savings due to the mess left by the previous Labour government! Bliar and Broon constantly referred to the 'last lot' with "no more boom and bust" and they did so all the way up to the day Broon lost the GE with rubbish like "don't let them take us back to the 80s". However, Bliar and Broon took us back to the 70s! Interest Rates of 15% did not blight the 80s and 90s! IRs were at 15% for ONE DAY! They started from 10%, then 15%, down to 12% and then finally back to 10% where they had been for a number of years! So stop telling lies! http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Black_Wedne sday The historical norm for IRs is 8%! But lets not forget Broon selling our gold, and announcing the price before the sale?? Lets not forget IRs that were way too low since 2000 and encouraged reckless borrowing, LIAR LOANS and mortgage fraud! Lets not forget which party priced a generation out of housing? Lets not forget who dished out the knighthoods for the bankers! THE LABOUR PARTY! Garnier is correct, our economy is screwed! It's screwed due to 13 years of Labour Government which has left this country ruined! We have a public sector much bigger than a private sector which makes us close to the command communist economies which collapsed in the late 80s! John Major was correct! New Labour, New Danger! Only complete economic collapse can get us out of the hell hole we are currently in! All the while, Broon & Bliar and the rest of the Liebour Party will be sipping champagne in their tax havens whilst we all struggle to fix the mess they left us with! drbeat

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HowardM says...
11:25am Thu 11 Oct 12

I make one post only on this to clarify some things. Firstly my comments were in response to what Mark said at a public meeting - his comments began the debate, I just performed my role as Parliamentary Spokesperson to scrutinise his opinion and comment. However...
Fact, the deficit Labour left in 2010 was lower than the deficit they inherited from the last Tory Government 13 years earlier.
Fact, the Tories will borrow double in the next 5 years what Labour borrowed in the previous 13. Net borrowing is going up not down.
Fact, the recession began in the US through the actions of "investors and bankers" overheating the economy through issues such as sub prime lending and it was not "Labours fault" that the knock on spread to much of Europe where Greece and Spain were hardest hit.
The level of debt this country had/has was clearly not sustainable and needed addressing. If you don't earn enough to pay your bills you have two main choices - spend less or earn more. The Tory way is spend less and cut! However the last two and a half years have shown it isnt working. More people are out of work, tax income consequently drops, benefit payments goes up, retail demand drops through a reduction in income, manufacturing demand drops - the spiral is downward - so the Government are borrowing more to compensate for lost income. Osborne predicted growth this quarter - the IMF show the UK economy is in decline - minus 0.04% this quarter.
I believe in Keynsian economics which was used to exit the recession in the 1930's. Basically Government invest in the economy, homes, schools, infrastructure development etc, employ people to do it, create income for people to spend, collect the consequential taxes, reduce benefits paid, kick start the retail economy, lift demand for manufacturing etc - an upward spiral - and consequently reduced borrowing!
Mark sites a couple of positives locally but misses the point. The Acadamy will neither generate income nor wealth - what it will do is add more young people to the queue of those who have training or qualifications with no job to go to.
Tesco's new store was agreed 6 years ago - 4 years before this Govt was elected so not down to them - but the potential effect is retail displacement by moving a finate market from one retailer to another so having a net negative effect on the local economy. Retail is a consequence of a healthy economy, not the creator of it.
The Carpet All Party Group - what carpet industry - its in terminal decline and has been for the last 30 years. It is about consumer trends and you cant get people buying a product that is becoming less fashionable. It wont be reversed by talking about it.
So change tack - find something we are good at and develop it. One of our greatest assets is our location in an area of great beauty, with top class tourist attractions (Safari Park and Severn Valley Railway) and nearness to many others - Ironbridge, Stratford, Black County Museum and a strong local industrial heritage - market the area as a destination hub and centre for visiting the entire area. Not day trips but longer stays - attract hotel building etc and the the knock on is the local economy benefits - people eat and shop where they visit and stay. It brings wealth and disposable income into the area which stays local rather than the profits of Tesco's and their supermarket chums going out of area into corporate coffers to build another supermarket somewhere else.
So no, Mark, after nearly 3 years it isnt "all Labours fault" - the situation now is of the Tories making and I see very little evidence coming either nationally or locally that action is in place to "un-screw" the mess.

I make one post only on this to clarify some things. Firstly my comments were in response to what Mark said at a public meeting - his comments began the debate, I just performed my role as Parliamentary Spokesperson to scrutinise his opinion and comment. However... Fact, the deficit Labour left in 2010 was lower than the deficit they inherited from the last Tory Government 13 years earlier. Fact, the Tories will borrow double in the next 5 years what Labour borrowed in the previous 13. Net borrowing is going up not down. Fact, the recession began in the US through the actions of "investors and bankers" overheating the economy through issues such as sub prime lending and it was not "Labours fault" that the knock on spread to much of Europe where Greece and Spain were hardest hit. The level of debt this country had/has was clearly not sustainable and needed addressing. If you don't earn enough to pay your bills you have two main choices - spend less or earn more. The Tory way is spend less and cut! However the last two and a half years have shown it isnt working. More people are out of work, tax income consequently drops, benefit payments goes up, retail demand drops through a reduction in income, manufacturing demand drops - the spiral is downward - so the Government are borrowing more to compensate for lost income. Osborne predicted growth this quarter - the IMF show the UK economy is in decline - minus 0.04% this quarter. I believe in Keynsian economics which was used to exit the recession in the 1930's. Basically Government invest in the economy, homes, schools, infrastructure development etc, employ people to do it, create income for people to spend, collect the consequential taxes, reduce benefits paid, kick start the retail economy, lift demand for manufacturing etc - an upward spiral - and consequently reduced borrowing! Mark sites a couple of positives locally but misses the point. The Acadamy will neither generate income nor wealth - what it will do is add more young people to the queue of those who have training or qualifications with no job to go to. Tesco's new store was agreed 6 years ago - 4 years before this Govt was elected so not down to them - but the potential effect is retail displacement by moving a finate market from one retailer to another so having a net negative effect on the local economy. Retail is a consequence of a healthy economy, not the creator of it. The Carpet All Party Group - what carpet industry - its in terminal decline and has been for the last 30 years. It is about consumer trends and you cant get people buying a product that is becoming less fashionable. It wont be reversed by talking about it. So change tack - find something we are good at and develop it. One of our greatest assets is our location in an area of great beauty, with top class tourist attractions (Safari Park and Severn Valley Railway) and nearness to many others - Ironbridge, Stratford, Black County Museum and a strong local industrial heritage - market the area as a destination hub and centre for visiting the entire area. Not day trips but longer stays - attract hotel building etc and the the knock on is the local economy benefits - people eat and shop where they visit and stay. It brings wealth and disposable income into the area which stays local rather than the profits of Tesco's and their supermarket chums going out of area into corporate coffers to build another supermarket somewhere else. So no, Mark, after nearly 3 years it isnt "all Labours fault" - the situation now is of the Tories making and I see very little evidence coming either nationally or locally that action is in place to "un-screw" the mess. HowardM

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HowardM says...
11:35am Thu 11 Oct 12

Sorry - final word to drbeat above - Harold Wilson? 1968? Milk? About as relevant as still blaiming Churchill for bombing Dresden 23 years earlier in 1945! Oh and the Tory **** up over Gordon in Khartoum! Shambles!
Come on 1968 is 44 years ago - this is now! Keep it current!

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Respectable says...
11:56am Thu 11 Oct 12

Well I'll stand correct on the finite detail.. as most of it is not relevant and I haven't got the time to conduct Wikipedia searches to give the impression I'm a super knowledgeable political historian.
The difference between 15% and 12% when your a new home owner in your 20's is still desperate to manage..
My message remains though.

When do we get forward thinking , empowered governments...? I'm not particulary bothered whether its Red, Blue Yellow or Green..

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emjaypee says...
12:35pm Thu 11 Oct 12

I too remember the high 15% rates and how crippling they were to low/moderate income families. Likewise the tory introduction of poll tax which was levied on every individual within a household that was 18 or over without any account taken for ability to pay.
Same old Tories targeting the poorer in our society whilst lining the pockets of their rich friends.
We have already been told the next big cut will be welfare. This again will hit the poorest and most vulnerable.
This is nothing short of Tory ideology which has not changed over the decades. How many voted tory last time only to find they are being squeezed now?

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Respectable says...
12:43pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Should we even get on to the privatisation programmes run by Maggie and the demise of our coal and ship building industry and wasn't it the tories who off loaded Austin Rover onto British Aerospace which in turn was sold to BMW for massive profit only to be allowed to slip away..?? Surley these are some of the reasons we have no manufacturing infrastructure in this country ....

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stour67 says...
12:44pm Thu 11 Oct 12

We were screwed by the yanks not labour,because if you default on your loan, mortgage's,etc in the states you hand in the keys and walk away,they cannot chase you for the loans etc,how do you think trump and his pals have got back on top by screwing over the peasants,and thats how it came over here due to the toxic loans taken out over there knowing they would not have to pay,hence Freddy may,and Freddy mac went belly up taking everyone with them. And this Tory gov. have had long enough to sort this out ,what's the point of not being dept if you cannot buy food etc,this why the pawn shops etc have sprang up,cause the tories are screwing use over to help there buddy's ,ie the new tax breaks,were are the new jobs if there is any, you cannot afford to get there as no there's pubilc transport.|Osborne is the cause of this and David .

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Shibdrift says...
1:20pm Thu 11 Oct 12

What always amazes me, and a lot of others, is how much time, supposedly busy 'politicians', can spend, spouting out so much dross on this website - (no doubt they can all afford to twitter, follow and generally abuse their time elsewhere aswell) - when will anybody get the message that the voters want something doing.
Towns are dying deaths, jobs are not far behind, apprentices being kicked out without warning (Eg. ATL in Hartlebury!!) and no-one can be bothered to get off the gravy train and earn some of their ill-gotten.
What a great state of affairs they have got us all in to!!

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kidderlord says...
1:52pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Shibdrift I think that is a very cynical view ... but in this instance Garnier did not make the statement here, but at a Tory meeting, but Howard has used the only way open to him to give a balanced reply, when the Tories have again told "untruths".
But first of all, if I remember correctly the General Election was 30 months ago , or 2 nd half years, so why oh why are the Tories still going on about Labour, when they should be doing something right to sort out the economy. As Ed Milliband said at conference, "if the medicine isn't working, change the doctor!" and as the medicine we are suffering is not working, just making us worse, then shouldnt Cameron be getting rid of his Chancellor "Dr Osbourne?

But can I also congratulate Howard Martin on taking the trouble to give a detailed and understandable (in plain English) view from both himself and the Labour Party. As the spokesman for Labour he has talked on many subjects in this column with both integrity, intelligence and and understanding of world and UK affairs, far more so than ANY previous party spokesperson ever before. Come on Labour, please formally elect this man as your official PPC for Wyre Forest so the electors have time to question him, get to know him, and elect him, as he richly deserves, and that local electors deserve- after all he may get itchy feet and try for a safe seat somewhere - but then NO that is not his style as he loves his adopted home, its people, and all about it - he hasn't bought a small property on the edge of the constituency just to get elected, talk down at people through his "silver spoon" filled mouth - come on Labour give us what we deserve and want.....a "new generation" politician like his previous master, Richard Taylor. Same integrity same love of Wyre Forest.

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jon cooper says...
3:56pm Thu 11 Oct 12

It's nice to see that the ambition to be Wyre Forest MP has started in earnest.......

What is amazing here is the fact that when Mark Garnier held a mid-term question and answer session about international, national and local issues, (open to all), at Stourport Civic Hall only a matter of weeks ago; NOT ONE Parliamentary Spokesperson, or political spokesman for Wyre Forest could be bothered to show up ! In fact the total attendance amounted to SIX, which included Mark Garnier !

I think the political custard pie throwing is rather old hat now and decidedly dull. Current governments will always blame their immediate predecessors. Who can forget Gordon Brown's now laughable statement of boom and bust on 18 years of Tory rule ! 'Pot calling the kettle black' comes to mind here ;-)

The problem with Great Britain for me is that we still tend to see ourselves having the so called 'Empire', and still being a major player in economic terms. This hasn't been the case since the 1930's, and the events of World War II put the tin hat on it, (excuse the obvious pun) !

As soon as we swallow our pride and admit that Great Britain is not some big game player the better as far as i'm concerned !

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Mary79 says...
5:36pm Thu 11 Oct 12

whats amazing is that anyone turned up to garniers event because he has nothing to say of any interest to anyone, he is such a tory puppet. we may be less influential in the world but we still have some significant influence with an economy in the top six yet the gap between rich and poor increases and garniers lot are accelerating it. so howards right, what is this government doing about it - nothing - just helping their rich buddies out thats what and the economy is screwed thanks to tory policies.

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kidderlord says...
5:43pm Thu 11 Oct 12

It may also be no one turned up because no one knew about it... I cant remember the press even reporting it which is unusual for the conservatives local paper the Shuttle.
And anyway who would want to see him talk when there are good comedy shows on tv - and the eagerly awaited "Mr Champion's Boys" on Channel WFDC, another new tele service that we have no choice in subscribing to.

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Jerome K says...
6:06pm Thu 11 Oct 12

I agree with the 2 posts above. Who cares whether anyone turned up to a talk by Mark Garnier, there are far more important reasons on who you decide to vote for. What amazes me is how Conservative voters pretend not to be Conservative voters and then jump in to defend them, why not just admit it, it's a perfectly rational choice? So here we have someone who is commending Mark Garnier for turning up to his own question and answer sension!!! Well that's swayed me! Jon Cooper then goes on to decry people throwing political mud at the Tory before joining in with mud thrown at Gordon Brown! What i've noticed recently is more and more people demanding an end to 'political custard pie throwing' but the same people weren't demanding an end to custard pie throwing when Labour was in! What is happening here is people trying to stifle criticism of our ruling Tory administration. Garnier makes a boo boo and if people jump on it then that's nasty politics but allowing Garnier to say contradictory political statements without correction is all tickety boo. When are local Conservatives going to grow some b*lls and admit they support the government and stop pretending they don't? There's nothing wrong with being a Tory it's just a different point of view so please stop trying to stifle debate.

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Dynamite Dawson says...
6:41pm Thu 11 Oct 12

That's actually quite funny as Jon Cooper's intervention onbehalk of Mark garnier is wrong. Although what Brown said was ludicrous he actually said "For 40 years our economy has an unenviable history, under governments of both parties, of boom and bust". He was referring to national economics rather than party political. At least get your facts right if you're going to throw custard pies!

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Dynamite Dawson says...
6:44pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Great post by Howard Martin by the way.

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jon cooper says...
7:51pm Thu 11 Oct 12

"So here we have someone who is commending Mark Garnier for turning up to his own question and answer sension!!! Well that's swayed me! Jon Cooper then goes on to decry people throwing political mud at the Tory before joining in with mud thrown at Gordon Brown" !

Where exactly have i commended Mark Garnier 'Jerome K' ?

What i have pointed out is that many local politicians, (including Conservatives), were strangely absent during the question and answer session. Some of the absentees have aspirations of being Wyre Forest MP even. Isn't this a bit odd ?

If the absentees use the "i didn't know anything about it" excuse, well frankly that is a bit lame considering it was advertised, and particularly by word of mouth through the corridors of Wyre Forest House !

Moving on from this, i still feel that whether an administration is Conservative, Labour or a coalition; each one has blamed their predecessors for the mess that's been left behind. It is a custard pie attitude that for me as voter is a total turn off, and ALL political parties are as guilty as each other for this approach. The "Boom and Bust" quote is a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black - only my opinion you understand 'Jerome K' ;-)

PS: I think it's highly amusing that a commentator is immediately dubbed a Conservative because they don't jump on the usual bandwagon of lambasting the Tories for lambasting's sake. Would this mean i would be a Labour supporter should i criticise the antics of a future Conservative opposition ?

I'm a huge critic of the Conservatives, (the Wyre Forest Conservatives in particular), but i'm not so naive as not to see through the attitude of some of our politicians who at times would prefer to go down the road of attacking their historic political enemy because it's always been deemed the right thing to do.

I would much rather political opponents using the approach of dealing with the full facts on certain issues rather than the predictable antics we are all used to.

"So here we have someone who is commending Mark Garnier for turning up to his own question and answer sension!!! Well that's swayed me! Jon Cooper then goes on to decry people throwing political mud at the Tory before joining in with mud thrown at Gordon Brown" ! Where exactly have i commended Mark Garnier 'Jerome K' ? What i have pointed out is that many local politicians, (including Conservatives), were strangely absent during the question and answer session. Some of the absentees have aspirations of being Wyre Forest MP even. Isn't this a bit odd ? If the absentees use the "i didn't know anything about it" excuse, well frankly that is a bit lame considering it was advertised, and particularly by word of mouth through the corridors of Wyre Forest House ! Moving on from this, i still feel that whether an administration is Conservative, Labour or a coalition; each one has blamed their predecessors for the mess that's been left behind. It is a custard pie attitude that for me as voter is a total turn off, and ALL political parties are as guilty as each other for this approach. The "Boom and Bust" quote is a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black - only my opinion you understand 'Jerome K' ;-) PS: I think it's highly amusing that a commentator is immediately dubbed a Conservative because they don't jump on the usual bandwagon of lambasting the Tories for lambasting's sake. Would this mean i would be a Labour supporter should i criticise the antics of a future Conservative opposition ? I'm a huge critic of the Conservatives, (the Wyre Forest Conservatives in particular), but i'm not so naive as not to see through the attitude of some of our politicians who at times would prefer to go down the road of attacking their historic political enemy because it's always been deemed the right thing to do. I would much rather political opponents using the approach of dealing with the full facts on certain issues rather than the predictable antics we are all used to. jon cooper

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The Voice of Treason says...
8:25pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Take it there will be an article posted by the Labour group in next weeks Shuttle praising the Keynsian building of the new council building then, our money being spent on infrastructure, employing local people and companies which in turn recycles the same money back to the government, priceless hypocrites the lot of you.

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The Voice of Treason says...
9:00pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Howard M please give me the names of politicians in any developed country who have SUCCESSFULLY pulled their countries out of the current financial crisis with a guarantee of, to coin a phrase 'No more boom or bust' using Keynsian economics?

no matter how parochial we are we live in a global economy or did that cease to be an excuse in May 2010?

PS looking forward to the sunny uplands that will undoubtedly follow in 2015 LMFAO

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Jon D says...
10:35pm Thu 11 Oct 12

I'll field this one...err...the USA?

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Jon D says...
11:01pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Getting back to the issue after that bizarre intervention by, to agree with Jerome here, another lableless Tory. Garnier is wrong when he says the economy is screwed, it is having a hard time as most western economies are. Obviously thanks to the anti Keynesian policies of the Tories they've given it a massive kick in the side, well more like a severe clubbing with a battering ram with nails on. But fortunately for them it's mainly the plebs at the bottom & the disabled who are taking the pain. Eventually the economy will turn round, no thanks to the callous half wits in power. So why is he saying it? The same reason as the most unpatriotic Prime Minister ever, Cameron, was doing when he was trying to talk down our economy so we'd all believe it was like Greece (how we laughed...well, no actually people actually believed him, yikes!). By unpatriotically running the country down people, or the gullible, will more easily believe it is necessary to strip the country of its public services which is the governments' long term aim.

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Jon D says...
9:07am Fri 12 Oct 12

Wonder if 'The Voice of Treason' will have acknowledged the answer asked for by the time i've finished work?

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Stephen Brown says...
12:04pm Fri 12 Oct 12

I don't see much evidence that the Government is actually stimulating the economy like Mark Garnier claims?

It's also true to say that things have got worse under this Government for the economy because they have reverted to type - slash and burn, hit the vulnrable and workers and line the pockets of big business and party donors.

Since coming to power the Conservatives have overseen rising public debt (£900million to £1.3trillion), rising deficit (22% increase to £59billion just this year alone), there is no growth (-0.4%), falling overall tax receipts as % of GDP, inflation is still rising, businesses going bust as no-one has any money or confidence to spend, workers losing rights, welfare slashed, public sector jobs and services cut and work being privatised or commissioned out to the private sector so private business can profit from taxpayers money.

You might also want to ask how many of the top (over £20million) public contracts awarded to private companies went to those companies who do not donate to the Conservative party? None!

Someone recently commented it's like one of those medievel doctors 'bleeding' a patient to make them better when ill, but it makes them worse, so their answer is to bleed them some more - which is more or less what is happening as the Givernment anounced another £10billion of welfare cuts this week.

And the big society? Well voluntary/charity bodies have seen £1billion cuts too since 2010.

The only thing to go up is the bill for the cabinet office ironically.

So some Keynesian stimulus is needed, along with green investment in renewable technology and energy, more affordable homes housebuilding and other infrastructure projects designed in the long term to help our local economies prosper and re-start the general economy.

It is a fact that austerity has never worked anywhere in the world in the 80 odd years it has been tried. In the end, it needs investment to help the economy along and in the current climate the private sector is just not going to take that risk without significant Government underwriting. The trick is sorting out how much and where and when to ease of the Keynesian throttle when thigs pick up - not just slash and burn and hope for the best.

As for spreading privilege, another Tory oxymoron - a bit like "all in this together" or "vote for change".

I don't see much evidence that the Government is actually stimulating the economy like Mark Garnier claims? It's also true to say that things have got worse under this Government for the economy because they have reverted to type - slash and burn, hit the vulnrable and workers and line the pockets of big business and party donors. Since coming to power the Conservatives have overseen rising public debt (£900million to £1.3trillion), rising deficit (22% increase to £59billion just this year alone), there is no growth (-0.4%), falling overall tax receipts as % of GDP, inflation is still rising, businesses going bust as no-one has any money or confidence to spend, workers losing rights, welfare slashed, public sector jobs and services cut and work being privatised or commissioned out to the private sector so private business can profit from taxpayers money. You might also want to ask how many of the top (over £20million) public contracts awarded to private companies went to those companies who do not donate to the Conservative party? None! Someone recently commented it's like one of those medievel doctors 'bleeding' a patient to make them better when ill, but it makes them worse, so their answer is to bleed them some more - which is more or less what is happening as the Givernment anounced another £10billion of welfare cuts this week. And the big society? Well voluntary/charity bodies have seen £1billion cuts too since 2010. The only thing to go up is the bill for the cabinet office ironically. So some Keynesian stimulus is needed, along with green investment in renewable technology and energy, more affordable homes housebuilding and other infrastructure projects designed in the long term to help our local economies prosper and re-start the general economy. It is a fact that austerity has never worked anywhere in the world in the 80 odd years it has been tried. In the end, it needs investment to help the economy along and in the current climate the private sector is just not going to take that risk without significant Government underwriting. The trick is sorting out how much and where and when to ease of the Keynesian throttle when thigs pick up - not just slash and burn and hope for the best. As for spreading privilege, another Tory oxymoron - a bit like "all in this together" or "vote for change". Stephen Brown

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Gobby Robby says...
3:03pm Fri 12 Oct 12

Keep it short Stephen! The Tory is on the rack here and we're waiting for his reply....

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Jon D says...
6:42pm Fri 12 Oct 12

Well well, as expected Voice of Treason has done one.
In short Obama borrowed to stimulate the US economy with resulting growth and falling unemployment. At the same time Cameron did the opposite by taking away the stimulus which resulted in double dip recession. Keynesian economics works, austerity doesn't. The facts are there. Shame V oT isn't polite enough to acknowlege his mistake, shame Mark Garnier is ignorant of basic economics.

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Bewdlnd says...
10:40pm Sat 13 Oct 12

Without figures in front of me it's hard to firm an argument but... is there not a case for austerity with regard to:

1) Maintaining credit rating - encourages investment

2) Int'l borrowing - keeps interest rates low (antithesis demonstrable in several EU countries (also see 1))

3) Keeping the sterling weak - encourages UK exports

I don't align myself with any given political party.

In creating a successful debate one might look to the positives in the opposition but show one's own to be greater.

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Mary79 says...
12:09am Sun 14 Oct 12

and for whose benefit is this? not ordinary people. the gap between rich and poor gets bigger and that should tell you something about whos benefitting here. its about time the cause was addressed - and banks reined in and controlled properly and the rich paid their fair share.

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drbeat says...
1:01am Sun 14 Oct 12

"Fact, the deficit Labour left in 2010 was lower than the deficit they inherited from the last Tory Government 13 years earlier."

Is HowardM on drugs? Does the M in this liberal socialist loser's name stand for a banned substance?

Is this guy really on this freakin planet? Or is he applying Ed-Balls-conomics to his outlook on life?

Our deficit is well over 1 Trillion quid...how on earth does that compare to the debt left by Major's government in 1997?

HowardM's masters have loaded our grand-children's children with over 10k of debt each?

Read Andrew Rawnsley's books titled: Servants of the People & End of the Party! You'll never vote Liebour again after reading those books!

New Labour, New Danger!

Ban the Labour Party!

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Mary79 says...
9:28am Sun 14 Oct 12

drbeat tory apologist oblivious to the fact the debt has risen under this tory government by £500milion and the deficit is widening too - totally down to this current tory government policies. the 'con' is in the conservatives name for a reason. i also think youll find that andrew rawnsely thinks all the parties and their leaders are open to a LOT of criticism but hes a journalist and author thats what hes paid to do and it sells newspapers/books and makes him a living so do carry on being idiotic and myopic drbeat its funny in its ignorance.

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Bewdlnd says...
9:52am Sun 14 Oct 12

Mary79 wrote:
and for whose benefit is this? not ordinary people. the gap between rich and poor gets bigger and that should tell you something about whos benefitting here. its about time the cause was addressed - and banks reined in and controlled properly and the rich paid their fair share.

I'm afraid you're quite wrong Mary; this is directly for the benefit of you, me and us as the government's ability to borrow, through the issuing of bonds for example, directly impacts on the funding of all of our public services. If you work backwards with that statement you may start to understand why the present government is cutting budgets (and why the opposition has stated it would be doing likewise, although purportedly at a slower rate).

as regards reigning in the banks... Please elaborate for us as this vague statement is difficult to agree or disagree with.

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Red Flag Dan says...
9:54am Sun 14 Oct 12

drbeat wrote:
"Fact, the deficit Labour left in 2010 was lower than the deficit they inherited from the last Tory Government 13 years earlier."

Is HowardM on drugs? Does the M in this liberal socialist loser's name stand for a banned substance?

Is this guy really on this freakin planet? Or is he applying Ed-Balls-conomics to his outlook on life?

Our deficit is well over 1 Trillion quid...how on earth does that compare to the debt left by Major's government in 1997?

HowardM's masters have loaded our grand-children's children with over 10k of debt each?

Read Andrew Rawnsley's books titled: Servants of the People & End of the Party! You'll never vote Liebour again after reading those books!

New Labour, New Danger!

Ban the Labour Party!

Oh dear...drbeat doesn't appear to know the difference between 'deficit' and 'debt'.

How embarrassing!

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Mary79 says...
12:22pm Sun 14 Oct 12

saying "youre quite wrong mary" bewdind is an opinion it does not make it a fact. it clearly isnt working and no amount of arguing can deny the obvious - debt up, deficit bigger but should i be pleased we pay less interest on that rising debt as that seems to be what you are saying? as an 'ordinary' person thrown on the dole by this governments policies and watching prices rise and incomes drop and attacks on the most vulnerable i think its fair to say none of it is to my benefit or those of a certain class like my own. it benefits only the capitalist banking system and their government lackeys and its what successive government policy since thatcher has been advocating more or less. the banks need tighter controls on how they operate thats obvious from whats happened in the recent past - controls that were there from the 1930s that the likes of reagan and thatcher swept aside and labour did nothing about (just like this current lot) which has now helped create this worsening mess. so forgive me if i think austerity isnt for my benefit because it isnt its a smokescreen for rich people to get richer and privatisation and the tools used and quotes are part of that smokescreen.

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Jon D says...
2:11pm Sun 14 Oct 12

@BewdInd - Keeping interest levels low is not worth causing a double dip recession and the consequent financial & social calamity that that has brought. Both USA & France have had their ratings downgraded without any effect on their economy, the ratings agencies are now so discredited no one takes them seriously....except for George Osborne unfortunately.
Sterling being weak is simply the sign of an economy in bad shape, with most of our trade partners suffering they are not buying with the consequence that exports haven't risen at all.
Today the Obsever tells us the IMF is backtracking, it says that Osborne's deficit cutting programme has taken £76 billion (more than 8% of GDP over 5 years) more out of the economy than thought. This is absolutely garguantuan,and if any other party had got it this collosally wrong the tanks would have been on the lawn a long long time ago. Christine Lagarde says the "impact on economic growth may be greater than previously thought"....who knew? She could have done worse than look on the Kiddy Shuttle site & have got the answer she's finally coming round to.
Growth is far less now than it was during 'the winter of discontent' sadly the only politicians who don't understand that deep spending cuts in the midst of a global turndown will 'screw the economy' are Cameron, Osborne & the rest of the Tories. Unfortunately their argument that 'you can't spend your way out of a debt crisis' seems common sense to the voter. But common sense can be completely contradictory to what science tells us - as common sense says that the sun goes around the earth when the earth goes around the sun. So you can take the words of nobel economics prize winner Paul Krugman & the only MPC member to predict the recession David Blanchflower that not only can you spend your way out of recession but that is what you should do. Or you can side with Cameron & Osborne, neither who are economists, who believe in austerity and under who's non scientific guidance has seen our economy go from a position of growth to one now far underperforming the period of the winter of discontent.

@BewdInd - Keeping interest levels low is not worth causing a double dip recession and the consequent financial & social calamity that that has brought. Both USA & France have had their ratings downgraded without any effect on their economy, the ratings agencies are now so discredited no one takes them seriously....except for George Osborne unfortunately. Sterling being weak is simply the sign of an economy in bad shape, with most of our trade partners suffering they are not buying with the consequence that exports haven't risen at all. Today the Obsever tells us the IMF is backtracking, it says that Osborne's deficit cutting programme has taken £76 billion (more than 8% of GDP over 5 years) more out of the economy than thought. This is absolutely garguantuan,and if any other party had got it this collosally wrong the tanks would have been on the lawn a long long time ago. Christine Lagarde says the "impact on economic growth may be greater than previously thought"....who knew? She could have done worse than look on the Kiddy Shuttle site & have got the answer she's finally coming round to. Growth is far less now than it was during 'the winter of discontent' sadly the only politicians who don't understand that deep spending cuts in the midst of a global turndown will 'screw the economy' are Cameron, Osborne & the rest of the Tories. Unfortunately their argument that 'you can't spend your way out of a debt crisis' seems common sense to the voter. But common sense can be completely contradictory to what science tells us - as common sense says that the sun goes around the earth when the earth goes around the sun. So you can take the words of nobel economics prize winner Paul Krugman & the only MPC member to predict the recession David Blanchflower that not only can you spend your way out of recession but that is what you should do. Or you can side with Cameron & Osborne, neither who are economists, who believe in austerity and under who's non scientific guidance has seen our economy go from a position of growth to one now far underperforming the period of the winter of discontent. Jon D

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Bewdlnd says...
4:15pm Sun 14 Oct 12

It's BewdLnd.

Thank you Jon D for a seemingly well researched and intelligent response.

I did some lightening research myself. As we know, our current monetary system dictates that macro-economics are generally directed by the markets... This article suggests that the markets (real life) disagree with you and yours...

http://www.forbes.co
m/sites/michaelpento
/2012/05/17/why-aust
erity-is-europes-onl
y-hope/

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kidderlord says...
6:01pm Sun 14 Oct 12

drbeat welcome back from the Tory conference in Bham...can u answer a question...was CLEE there?and now u mention drugs, we don't need laughing gas anymore we just read your ludicrous posts

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emjaypee says...
7:27pm Sun 14 Oct 12

Now let's get this straight!
ConDems cut deep & swiftly.
Labour would cut less deep over longer period. All would cause misery.
I remember when there used to be a clear difference between the major political parties........ Anyone for a game of spot the difference?

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Mary79 says...
7:57pm Sun 14 Oct 12

bewdleylnd - forbes in my view is dedicated to the preservation of capitalism so it would say that wouldnt it. similarly if i used the new statesman as a reference point you would say the opposite.

so again, saying it dont make it so, its just a view and dont make you right. the REAL evidence for REAL people is already out there - austerity doesnt work. go ask a greek, or a spaniard, or italian, or better still just look closer to home here in the uk, we have foodbanks for christs sake.

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Jon D says...
8:13pm Sun 14 Oct 12

Firstly please ignore drbeat one and all he is clearly a loony, apart from the obvious evidence he says after reading Andrew Rawnsley that you'd never vote Labour again - Rawnsley is a Labour voter so he either didn't read the book or didn't understand it.
Back to reality @BewdLnd - Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately you've copied & pasted a link for your response which isn't really fair is it? I could just as eaily just copy and paste something by Paul Krugman back like a game of tennis, or spend time having to disect someone else's thoughts. Fortunately you've made the error of linking an article from Forbes so it shouldn't be too hard (Forbes is the company that placed Fidel Castro in its rich list even though no one knows where he lives let alone calculate his financial worth. Also the company that is so warped with money love in it's obsession with rich lists it supports the insane US Republican Party).
Anyway reductions in spending, according to your man Michael Pento, will do no harm because lower borrowing will lead to higher private spending. Then he trots out the disproved idea that reducing the public sector leaves room for private industry to take over. Nonsense. There is little evidence historically that suggests this works. Although there is abundant evidence to show the failure of austerity in what happened in the 1930s in the U.S., when spending was reduced too soon in a recovery leading to economic catastrophe. Britain didn’t have a double-dip because it was using Keynesian economics it had one because it was doing the polar opposite i.e cutting too far. The only examples sited where austerity has supposed to have worked (Canada) have been accompanied by monetary stimulus or accompanied by economic boom in neighboring trading states (EU is in crisis, world in recession - not going to happen). Pento claims that austerity raises confidence but the complete reverse has happened - consumer & buiness confidence tumbled right after the Tories took office, they knew what was coming and have cut back accordingly. When they came to office the economy was growing Osborne claimed the credit, now we are in recession how can he blame someone else?
Finally you claim that the markets are 'real life', is not double dip recession 'real life' is not an expanding deficit 'real life'? Pento's markets are more to do with dreaming in the made up world of economic theorists rather than 'real life'. The evidence is all around you, USA deficit spent and is consequently bucking the world trend by being in growth with unemployment falling. Britain embarked on austerity with consequent double dip recession, it's as clear as that.

Firstly please ignore drbeat one and all he is clearly a loony, apart from the obvious evidence he says after reading Andrew Rawnsley that you'd never vote Labour again - Rawnsley is a Labour voter so he either didn't read the book or didn't understand it. Back to reality @BewdLnd - Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately you've copied & pasted a link for your response which isn't really fair is it? I could just as eaily just copy and paste something by Paul Krugman back like a game of tennis, or spend time having to disect someone else's thoughts. Fortunately you've made the error of linking an article from Forbes so it shouldn't be too hard (Forbes is the company that placed Fidel Castro in its rich list even though no one knows where he lives let alone calculate his financial worth. Also the company that is so warped with money love in it's obsession with rich lists it supports the insane US Republican Party). Anyway reductions in spending, according to your man Michael Pento, will do no harm because lower borrowing will lead to higher private spending. Then he trots out the disproved idea that reducing the public sector leaves room for private industry to take over. Nonsense. There is little evidence historically that suggests this works. Although there is abundant evidence to show the failure of austerity in what happened in the 1930s in the U.S., when spending was reduced too soon in a recovery leading to economic catastrophe. Britain didn’t have a double-dip because it was using Keynesian economics it had one because it was doing the polar opposite i.e cutting too far. The only examples sited where austerity has supposed to have worked (Canada) have been accompanied by monetary stimulus or accompanied by economic boom in neighboring trading states (EU is in crisis, world in recession - not going to happen). Pento claims that austerity raises confidence but the complete reverse has happened - consumer & buiness confidence tumbled right after the Tories took office, they knew what was coming and have cut back accordingly. When they came to office the economy was growing Osborne claimed the credit, now we are in recession how can he blame someone else? Finally you claim that the markets are 'real life', is not double dip recession 'real life' is not an expanding deficit 'real life'? Pento's markets are more to do with dreaming in the made up world of economic theorists rather than 'real life'. The evidence is all around you, USA deficit spent and is consequently bucking the world trend by being in growth with unemployment falling. Britain embarked on austerity with consequent double dip recession, it's as clear as that. Jon D

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Jon D says...
8:25pm Sun 14 Oct 12

@emjaypee - I sympathise with your point, but politics is the art of the possible. The public have rejected the idea of not cutting as it seems counter intuitive as we have a debt. If a party stands on a platform of Keynesian deficit spending they won't get elected even though the evidence from USA shows it works. Unfortunately the people don't want to engage in politics they want to keep buying tabloids instead. It's all very well blaming the politicians but at some point the people have to start taking responsibility for their actions or lack of action as the case may be.

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Bewdlnd says...
10:12am Mon 15 Oct 12

@Jon D
My copy and paste reply may not seem fair but you obviously have a good understanding of the subject and you position within it. I however am developing mine and unfortunately have not the time to research, digest and construct a useful essay on the matter.

I have been posting a little provocatively to encourage the sorts of response you've provided and they have been most educational.

The trouble I have is that your arguments are undeniably very persuasive but they are rendered more effective by the current failings of austerity (ah! Politics!)

Re. drbeat... Amongst others I read here, this is an individual who clearly cannot engage in rational, civilised debate based on posts littered throughout the ether of the Shuttle website but nevertheless provides an entertaining sideline!

P.S. I am using a fruit-based device and auto-correct is determined to make me appear an illiterate deviant!

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Jon D says...
12:47pm Mon 15 Oct 12

Fair enough Bewdlnd :-)

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comberton hill questions says...
1:21pm Tue 16 Oct 12

I have read with some interest this debate. My own view is that if you are an MP then when you speak in public you are open to be criticised which is what has happened here.

Regarding the financial information that has been spouted - I will draw your attention to the IMF which was proudly paraded by the coalition in saying look we are doing the right thing as the IMF has agreed we are doing the right thing with the economy.
However at the IMF annual meeting in Tokyo which concluded Sunday David Lipton who is the deputy managing director of the IMF stated that the pace of austerity should be slowed down.
He also slashed the growth forecast to 0.6 - the BIGGEST downgrade of any advanced nation in the world by the IMF if the people above wish to compare other countries.

We are in a difficult position that is a fact however I would rather than preaching to the converted at his own conference maybe Mr Garnier should be looking at what he can do for Kidderminster the place where he is the MP and sort out the town centre before it disintergrates further.

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Jukebox1 says...
5:43pm Tue 16 Oct 12

I wish people had better memories. The Cons. 'screwed' the economy in the early nineties on " Black Wednesday" This led to the doubling of VAT. They then increased VAT again to 20% to try to fix the "screwed" economy which the Bankers caused with their insatiable greed and in the name of Rothschilds. They've even convinced themselves that they can get blood from a stone as they " screw" us all, still further into the ground. And you know what? And be warned if you're planning to be " In it" with these latest employer contributing pensions - I fully predict it will all happen yet again in about 12 to 15 years. So please learn everybody - please!!

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Wyre Forest MP hits back after Labour criticism (From Kidderminster Shuttle)

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Wyre Forest MP hits back after Labour criticism

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